The NXT is the brain – but we’ve added expansion capability to the NXT. Specifically the new kit will include a controller that extends the capability of the NXT to handle more sensors, DC drive motors, and servos. The additional controller is a product supplied by HiTechnic and plugs directly into one of the NXT sensor ports.
DC motors, servos, and sensors can all be wired directly into the HiTechnic FTC Controller terminal block – greatly expanding the capability of the robotics kit.
The range of sensors available includes touch sensor, compass, light sensor, color sensor, accelerometer, gyroscope, ultrasonic, and there will be more in the future. Additionally, there is a prototyping kit that allows the inventive users to create sensor modules for the NXT controller. The sensors we’ll include in the kit will depend on the feedback we get from teams and the game designs we’ll use in the future.
Now that we’ve got a stronger structure and gear train we can use more powerful motors. To drive those motors we’re moving to a 12VDC system. The batteries will be 7.2VCD NiMH, wired in series for a nominal 14.4VDC power input. The controller will direct this power to heavy-duty 12VDC drive motors rated for 152 RPM and a stall torque of 231.5 oz-in.
The kit will also include DC servo motors with Karbonite gears rated for 76.37 oz.in.
The new kit is stronger, has higher voltage – longer amp hour batteries, includes DC drive motors and stronger servo motors, incorporates a wide variety of sensors that will be expandable in the future, and a communication protocol that allows for more options including the game controller and bi-directional communication.
These changes allow us to challenge teams in ways not possible in the past.
An example of the power we’re talking about can be seen in the video below.
Stay tuned,
Ken
33 comments:
I am really mad about this. This is looking more like a "toy" than vex! FTC is making a big mistake.
Things they are doing wrong:
1.NXT! Why don't they take the brain and the extra part thing that allows motors, put them in the same plastic case without the words LEGO on them? It would make much more sense. BTW lego = toy. I thought this wasn't a toy.
2.Too powerfull! I don't think using motors that can have more strength really effects anything. You gain more knowledge by using weaker motors cause you must think how you could make them work.
3.If it aint broke don't fix it! vex was perfectly fine! Everyone liked it and everything was made for the kit.
FTC is going down hill. Its just sad.
I actually somewhat disagree with that. As far as my understanding goes, you can still use the older vex parts with the newer parts. Why would you be mad about having more options?
As a progger, I am very excited about the introduction of gyros, accelerometers, even a compass to this system. One area that FTC sorely lacks in is autonomous. Having these sensors will give FTC progress an ever more important and complex task, teaching them even more about robotics and electronics.
I am excited at this announcement not only because FTC will benefit from these new parts, but because the noobs on my FRC team can now buy a kit for themselves that contains all of the same core parts that the big bot will.
I hope that FIRST takes all of our comments into concern and makes nxt years system kick serious butt!
I can't find an edit button, so I will post again (sorry?).
If you can't reuse older vex parts with the new system, then it is a bad decision to switch. My team spent hundreds of $$$ on stocking our shelves with vex parts. Will we have to sell it all on ebay?
If you just swapped the uP and RF modules, you would solve most of the current issues of the kit while generating almost no new ones.
Totally agree with you Nada, they just don't get it.
1. Why fix something that ain't broke?
2. You tell us to invest in a challenging high tech classroom platform for 3 years, then you inform us it's suddenly a toy, and NOW you replace it with Lego and Pitsco (that SCREAMS sell out to help a corporate partner sell product and make money)
3. Vex has no problem with sensors - the only reason we don't use more sensors is because of the game design and the time given. How can you not know this?
4.You take an affordable platform like Vex that is great for the classroom and you try to replace it with something more expensive that has bigger motors and metal gears?
Here is something nobody has really mentioned yet:
FIRST, all you have done is created a higher priced platform that is LESS SAFE. If Vex had metal gears and motors that could cut the finger off a student, I wouldn't use it in the classroom. Vex is an ideal classroom type robot kit - the new platform FTC sounds much more dangerous and more of a liability risk for teachers like me and schools like ours. FIRST, we like FIRST and Vex, if you make us choose, we have to choose what is best for our students and our school - and it's not a hard choice, in the classroom it's Vex.
Just noticed there are several errors in one of the sentences in this post. Where it says
The batteries will be 7.2VCD NiMH, wired in parallel for a nominal 14.4VDC power input
it should say
The batteries will be 7.2VDC NiMH, wired in series for a nominal 14.4VDC power output
FIGHT THE POWAH!
I hope it is fine to use vex as an alternative platform. I want to use a good platform!
is any part of the new kit made by first themselves?
Pitsco is one of the most expensive company EVER. Everything is overpriced. I have a feeling that this is going to be $2000 - $2500. No where on this website have they mentioned the price - even though on chief delphi the cost has been asked many many times.
I just went to hitechnic's website and saw a list of their advanced sensors which were about $45 each. That is kind of steep, and to be honest reading some of their information left me a little confused. I am a math teacher not an electronics expert. I have been able to manage a team without engineering help, even though I have asked for help. I am not sure if I will be able to properly support the team. I wish the kits came out in June so we could play with them all summer before we have to use them to compete in FTC
I'm a teacher who bought one Vex kit to test in our class a couple months ago. The students have really liked it, it keeps them engaged, and they are able to build some very cool things with a pretty inexpensive kit. We were about to make a $5k purchase of Vex kits to start an entire robotics class with 8 Vex robots next school year and to enter FTC. We have put that decision on hold for the past month to decide if we should do the new FTC platform or stick with Vex. Today, our decision was made, by FIRST. Since this new platform is more like FRC, is more expensive and most importantly clearly has more safety risks than Vex, we will move forward with our investment in Vex. For the classroom, we need the safest kit possible, and it's clear the metal gears and stronger motors are more dangerous when the hope is that the students have their hands all over this things. I haven't heard any other teachers I talked to tell me Vex needs stronger motors or metal gears, and it's the safer option for the classroom, so our choice is made. Vex.
Plus, as the other poster mentioned, I HATE ordering from Pitsco and try to avoid it whenever possible.
1. I dislike the NXT with a passion. As a former FLLer, whose final year as a student was the first with the NXT, I got to try it, and was hugely dissappointed. There was extremely limited memory, very unreliable sensors, and a host of other problems. I simply can't imagine this controller working with an FTC style bot.
2. Please stop dissing vex. Our vex robot, (almost) direct driven, can easily do the amazing task in the video. Vex motors and hardware can lift themselves easily, as proven in 2007. What could you possibly add to make the game require more solidity than that? Hammers? Bowling balls?
3. We do not have an electrical engineer to make our sensors!
4. What was wrong with vex. Look through the entirety of chiefdelphi, and you will not find one thread saying *VEX SUX WE NEED TO START OVER* Yes, you will find a few criticisms, mostly on the electrical/software side. Yes, there was room for improvement. But we don't need this.
Our budget is already stretched tihgt. Goodbye, FTC :(
I agree joe ______, robots don't need to be super strong. If a company were making a robot that could put rings on a post I doubt they'd spend extra to make it be able to lift rings that weighed 100
pounds!
I own an NXT and also saw problems. There wasn't a bunch of memory (as stated). Mine would drain the batteries in 30 minutes, then just shut on and off for a while making it impossible to do anything with it. The new thing that plugs into it will prolly even use up more power.
Anyways I think I've said enough.
Moral: First failed
PS: how much profit is first going to make off selling these kits? You think they did this so they could reel in a very large profit?
If this is just a plug in to the nxt I am going to be so ticked. I have yet to experience a problem with vex that can't be solved with a little thought and effort. This currently looks likes a bad move by FIRST.
I welcome the challenge that comes with the new kit. I know why FIRST has left IFI. FTC will not feature Vex in the future.
My students are very excited about the new kit. Please keep the updates coming!
i like this new kit (but not the cost) although in the video is shows a robot pulling a chair, um...my FTC robot (using Vex!!) did this, and i was in the chair, that direct drive, 6WD
Guys and Gals,
Let's not fly off the handle here.
In earlier posts they have said that there will be more memory than VEX.
Quote: It is 38% faster and has about 10 times more memory than our previous controller.
Nada said, "I have a feeling that this is going to be $2000 - $2500. No where on this website have they mentioned the price - even though on chief delphi the cost has been asked many many times."
If i remember correctly the price of the kit will be ~$1000. will be available at a reduced price around May for August delivery.
see:http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65528
If you remember FVC was a pilot program with a limited lifespan. FIRST Let folks know at the beginning of September about the possible changes. If you have stockpiled parts knowing this information, you can always use it for prototyping.
One last thought: FIRST, please stop this tease. Give us the all the information you have so those who run teams can make budget decisions for the next school year. I need two pieces of information:
1. what is the exact price of the basic kit and all "upgrades."
2. What exactly is in the starter kit? is the $1000 going to have everything a team needs to be competitive?
On the safety issue: I think it's a minor concern. After working with various hand tools and such, the new platform doesn't seem any more dangerous than Vex. What i plan on doing is getting my kit ASAP and sitting down with it, and my team, and talk about any safety concerns that we have. As for not working in a classroom, i don't see any problems with it as long as simple safety procedures are observed. IE:Do not stick your hands in a robot that is powered up...
Ok I have had enough...Just because dean and tony are in a pissing contest doesn't mean all of us need to suffer.
I think it is obvious at this point to others who are not as closely tied to the situation that you are cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Yes lego is a larger company then IFI and so you are just going to bend over when they have IFI envy that their platform is on two competitions and not one (jrfll not counting)
Lets take a look at your now "non toy" platform for a second. The metal is an obvious byproduct of the GEARSEDS system. Thats funny Mike Bastoni left FIRST for battlebots and now you leave long term supporters of FIRST (IFI) for someone who hasn't cared for years.
NXT - keep telling yourself that this is a "real" robotics platform. if you take it to any place in the world with kids they will instantly want it as a TOY. This isn't to say vex isn't a toy also, but get off your high horse thinking that yours is better.
The scale of the competition does not require a memory or processor upgrade. 90% of teams don't use all of the functionality of the current system, so what makes you think it needs to be faster? The same applies for FRC.
Basically what it all comes down to is the Executive Advisory Board has no clue because they are so cut off from the students that they will do whatever dean, steve, or Paul say. This is a case of the blind leading the blind.
Before this I had no vested interest in IFI or Vex as I used to feel that it was about THE KIDS, but now I hope FTC goes down to the far better and cost effective program which IFI is now running. Congrats FIRST you have just killed something that could have been a great program for the students.
To the guy/gal above me...
maybe the Advisory Board knows something you don't? Maybe we should think about what you are implying before you post? maybe you have thought about it since you posted anonymously. It's just sad that GP cannot be maintained in this discussion. I'm aware folks are upset. I am aware this is not going the way some folks wanted. Disagree all you want, heck be mad about it but, at least disagree in a constructive manner.
Rick Blight said "... I know why FIRST has left IFI...."
Rick - Will you please share the "why" of all of this with the rest of us? I don't think that I have heard a reason yet that makes sense.
For any answer you give to make sense, you might have to describe the context in which it was taken, and the goals the decision-makers were trying to reach.
You might have to name the decision-makers so that their responsibilities and authority can be recognized by your audience.
I would certainly welcome being able to understand the root cause(s) of these changes.
Blake
I kind of disagree with the above comments about NXT. The NXT platform has a much better "brain" than VEX and there is no denying the power of a motor with metal gears as opposed to plastic. Vex motors and clutches would either break or burn out on us perpetually, and diverted our time from solving the game to meaningless maintenance.
Does the practice in repairing the robot provide valuable experience and teach good engineering principles? Maybe. Does a high-quality platform like IFI for FRC make FIRST a truly meaningful experience? Definetely.
Personally, I think FTC will die as a competition unless FIRST can make it more worthwhile, which can only be done by this transition to a new platform. Otherwise FRC and FLL, which have clearly defined age groups, can simply absorb the kids who would otherwise do FTC, just based off the superiority of their systems, and the annoyances and quirks of VEX.
To Abhi...
True, this transition can easily be damaging to FTC, but I am quite sure that the teams will not dissolve very easily into FLL and FRC. There are just too many things involved. There is a reason why students go for FTC. It's the cheaper version of FRC without the need to go to something as basic as FLL.
Don't get me wrong about FLL, I've spent many hours working with Mindstorms, but FTC fits right in the middle and gives best of both worlds.
I see these improvements as both positive and negative issues. The biggest problem that I see is how is such a device going to be backwards compatible electronically? I'm a student, so I may be missing on some technical knowledge, but how will a device be able to determine the rating of the peripheral? All of these neat new features are great, but I want to see some backwards compatibility issues resolved.
Also, if all of these components are getting stronger and more powerful, while the field maintains it's shape, does that mean we will have to start designing vertically? Meaning that we'll be facing challenges that have emphasis on the ability to extend the robot so it may reach goals in higher areas?
My son is almost to high school now so last year I started looking into helping start and mentor a FIRST team at his school. I've got an interested teacher and we were looking into both FRC and FVC. I helped with an FRC team about 5 years ago, and it was great, but just too expensive and takes too much time for us to jump into. We decided we would start an FVC team now, build on that and maybe start an FRC team after a year or two. I share this because over the last year I have had conversations with both the FIRST director out here and with the Vex Director of Education out here (I'm in California). They have both been professional, friendly, and very helpful - and contrary to the posts on this blog, neither of them have had one thing negative to say about either program, FIRST or Vex, which I find refreshing and professional. I do find it hypocritical for the blogger to call Vex a "toy" when FIRST has been pitching it for years as a great engineering platform and then to turn around and announce they want to replace it with a lego pitsco platform with toy parts in it. As we continue to prepare to start what we thought would be a Vex FTC team next year, we check the website and have been reading this blog for a couple weeks. I've only done FRC, so I can't really comment on Vex yet, but since there's lots of opinion on this blog, I'm going to say this:
No offense to the FIRST people or the Vex people, but I have to take anything they say with a grain of salt. The bloggers job is clearly to promote the new platform and try to make it sound better than Vex, whether it is or not, so his comments are part spin at all times and I'm sure the Vex employees are promoting their product to. The only information or opinions that really matter to me are those of the people who have used Vex. They are the ones who don't have an agenda and don't have to defend it based on their employment, so I've been taking the comments by the teachers and users very seriously.
So far these are my reactions to what I've been reading: It does seem strange to me that FIRST would change from something that the vast majority of their users seem to really like. It's not to often you see a company move away from a product their customers like, and normally when companies do that, it doesn't turn out to be the right decision. The general experience people have with the Vex kits seems to be really positive. As long as they are strong enough and work in the competitions, I don't care if gears are metal or plastic. And I really don't care if an office chair can be pulled or if someone can pull themselves up on a piece of metal. I do care that the platform is as safe as possible if it's being used in the classroom and I do care it's got support materials for the teacher so they can do it in class when I can't be there. I do care that it's as cheap as possible because we only want to do a program if we can afford 4 or 5 robots for the class so all the kids can work on a robot. If one kit is too expensive and we can only afford 1 or 2 robots, then that won't work for us. So far, I am very skeptical about the new FTC platform, but I have not made a final decision yet. It sounds like they still have more aspects of the platform to disclose, which I'm eager to see, along with what the price will be. Plus I'm still hoping to hear more input from people that have been in FVC/FTC for a couple years, that input is what we will really value.
I haven't posted before, but wanted to share my thoughts and say thanks to everyone for all the comments. Our school has some funds to spend, but they must have the decision and budget projected in the next 2 weeks, so all this input will really help us make our decision. For those of us trying to decide if FTC or Vex (or maybe both) will be good options for us, the comments from the people who have used the kits are very helpful.
I have to disagree with Wilson. I don't see how safety can be a minor issue. Seems very clear to me there is always a risk with moving parts in robots, and it seems clear that if the moving parts are metal and moving faster, then worse injuries will happen. I agree with the guy who said the Vex platform seems safer than the new FTC platform if it has bigger motors and metal gears. If I stick my finger in Vex robot gears, it will probably really hurt but I'm not gonna lose the finger. If I accidently do the same in the new Pitsco bot, it sounds like it will hurt a lot worse and possibly cost me a digit.
To Jeff - I started reading the chiefdelphi.com forums, and those have lots of great information. There are lots of teachers, students and mentors on there and theres a lot of discussion about Vex and the FTC platform, so you might want to check that out to get more feedback.
to daviddavid, injuries to occur in anything you do, it happens in sports, you can flame the new platform and say "oh well the safety risk is way higher", well what about the 6000+ teams in FRC!? or how about the kids all over the world that have a tech course? think about that before ranting on safety issues
From what I have heard from my FTC Director is that PITSCO is only providing the brain of the robot. This is NOT a PITSCO robot. FIRST seems to be modeling the new kit after the FRC model. They are pulling for various vendors to create the kit, not just from one.
Jeff: I agree that Vex is a good platform and it seems weird that FIRST will be moving away from it. This leads me to believe that there is something else going on that has not been publicly announced. I'm not one for airing dirty laundry in public, however, i honestly think that FIRST should tell us what is God's Green Earth is going on.
David: there is inherent risk in everything we do. If you educate you teams about safety, personally model safety, and make safety a part of the culture of your team, this new kit is just as safe as vex. If you want a kit you can just give to a bunch of green kids and say," have fun," this is not the kit for you. Would i be willing to use these new kits in my classroom? absolutely.
Wilsonw said "... this new kit is just as safe as vex." The context was one that focused on teaching students to avoid danger. In that context I would disagree but only slightly; and in fact the new machinery might be easier to control and might make accidents slightly less likely. But, the likeliehood of an accident probably doesn't/shouldn't dominate this risk discussion.
What should dominate the discussion is the "effects" part of assessing a risk. I think that several people have correctly observed that the consequences of a human vs machine accident are almost inevitably worse when the machine involved is more powerful than alternatives.
It is common to think about risk in terms of a combination of likelihood and effects. Using that approach, if effects get worse and likelihood stays roughly constant, risk has grown. When risk grows, extra investment is needed to deal with the increased risk.
I'll just give some FRC participant views on this matter. Having used Vex for prototyping, its fragility and awful controllability in no way reflects what is actually used in the field (let a lone the washed down stuff we get in the kit) motors are stronger, gears dont strip, and the metal isn't easily bendable by hand. This new set does a much better job of demonstrating modern robotics, especially its focus on autonomy and ease of control. However, I do believe the fiscal stress it puts on teams is too much. I dont know why you guys are handling this in the way you are. Take the lessons you learned from the NXT switch in FLL and apply here. Allow old vex systems to be used and give them a point bonus. In a nutshell: This new system is a better prototyper then VeX, but worse for competitions.
to andy, there are about 1700 FRC teams, not 6000. maybe someday!
to alex, hmm...i got to track down where i saw that and tell them to fix that! thanks! but still 1700FRC teams keeps my point
Some random comments:
- There are currently about 1,300 active FRC teams, not 1,700.
- There were more than 800 FTC teams this season.
- I'm a former FRC mentor who has been running an FVC/FTC program for two years. I don't find the Vex platform either flimsy or particularly limiting for its price range. If you find FTC limiting, you could say the same thing about FRC, which features several restrictions that simply wouldn't be present in "real" robots. No hydraulics? No solenoids? Only one CPU? A 120-pound weight limit? None of these are representative of "real" robots. Once you agree that robotic competitions create artificial restrictions for the sake of non-engineering goals, then you are just discussing the degree of limitation. I am (almost) entirely satisfied with the limitations of Vex.
- IFI has been responsive to requests for new parts in the Vex product line. We could use a motor with more torque, and possible either double-thick gears (which you could make yourself), or metal gears for some applications. With a 12-foot arena, there is little need to go faster.
- I'm optimistic about the new FIRST FTC kit, but I would be happy with a continuing use of Vex, too.
- A lot of criticism of the new FTC platform has to do with its suitability as a classroom educational platform. That's certainly one issue for the teachers in the FIRST community, but it's not one that will affect me or our club. As long as we can still build the bots with hand tools, and can afford it, it does not have to be perfectly safe for desktop use in a classroom. FIRST needs to consider all of its customers, and a large number of us are not teachers or schools.
- Someone on one of the forums posted a link to this site: http://www.lynxmotion.com. It looks like a lot of the parts for the new FTC kit will come from these folks.
- Slowly dragging an office chair is no big deal for a Vex robot. Kind of a strange demo, really. I would like to see a demo of a bot raising a double-jointed arm in one second with a single train of gears. That would be cool.
i want pneumatics! you say this is a "real robotics platform" well pneumatics and hydraulics are used a lot in real world application robots
I wouldn't rush to comments. The thing that strikes me the most is the money. Teams will really struggle. I think that we should give FIRST this chance to try and make something better. We shouldn't be to harsh. I am excited about the kits and i hope that we can do more with them.
IE> Pnuematics, Hyrdraulics..
But it would be a pain to carry a compressor...:D
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